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	<title>Comments on: Dan Barker and Jesus</title>
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	<link>http://www.cogitolingua.net/blog/2009/02/24/dan-barker-and-jesus/</link>
	<description>Sounding out the Noosphere.</description>
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		<title>By: erich</title>
		<link>http://www.cogitolingua.net/blog/2009/02/24/dan-barker-and-jesus/comment-page-1/#comment-2542</link>
		<dc:creator>erich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Mar 2009 00:44:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cogitolingua.net/blog/?p=157#comment-2542</guid>
		<description>I would just like to remind the panel, that atheists are typically not out on a crusade to convert people. Though, like anyone, we do appreciate those that hold beliefs similar to our own. Do we hold a moral objection to religion and religious ideas? yes. But, that objection is qualified by the harm we see the religion causing. Most Christians are moderate, and the belief structure is not overly harmful to themselves, nor is it particularly threatening to non-believers. But, as with Santa Claus, we will always encourage people to give up belief without evidence, though we aren&#039;t on a mission to do so.

The Christian belief system is somewhat different though. If you really do believe that non-theists will burn for eternity in Hell, then you have a moral obligation to save such poor souls. You really are out on a mission of conversion, it&#039;s your Christian duty. Most moderates don&#039;t follow this duty with the urgency that they should; which is quite fortunate for the rest of us.

So atheists don&#039;t have to be in-your-face assertive, but Christians really should.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would just like to remind the panel, that atheists are typically not out on a crusade to convert people. Though, like anyone, we do appreciate those that hold beliefs similar to our own. Do we hold a moral objection to religion and religious ideas? yes. But, that objection is qualified by the harm we see the religion causing. Most Christians are moderate, and the belief structure is not overly harmful to themselves, nor is it particularly threatening to non-believers. But, as with Santa Claus, we will always encourage people to give up belief without evidence, though we aren&#8217;t on a mission to do so.</p>
<p>The Christian belief system is somewhat different though. If you really do believe that non-theists will burn for eternity in Hell, then you have a moral obligation to save such poor souls. You really are out on a mission of conversion, it&#8217;s your Christian duty. Most moderates don&#8217;t follow this duty with the urgency that they should; which is quite fortunate for the rest of us.</p>
<p>So atheists don&#8217;t have to be in-your-face assertive, but Christians really should.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Forrester</title>
		<link>http://www.cogitolingua.net/blog/2009/02/24/dan-barker-and-jesus/comment-page-1/#comment-2541</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Forrester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 08:29:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cogitolingua.net/blog/?p=157#comment-2541</guid>
		<description>Hey, this reminds me of the discussion group meetings of the old days, so I&#039;ll pipe up and contribute too.

Sarah, I agree that humanity&#039;s best guess (i.e., science) is not the whole story, at least as it stands right now. I also think some people get a little too cocky when talking about the state of science and the ability of humans to reach greater understanding and control their fate. Science and human reason have their limits. But I think humanity&#039;s other guesses (religions and other attempts at gaining access to super- or extra-human knowledge and experience) are not very good. For example, too much credence is given to anecdotal evidence, logical fallacies proliferate, and unjustified interpretations are made of genuine emotional experiences and psychological states.

But, on to my analogy:

The belief in the Christian god and Jesus is like the belief in Santa Claus in many ways. Santa Claus can really inspire you when you are vulnerable to the myth. You can get very excited about his love and gifts and be frightened by the potential for withholding of gifts or bestowing of coal or orther more nasty fates. Santa Claus has the ability to change the behavior of little children for the better. And yet, it is better for children to grow up and realize the benefit of being good for their own sake (not just for &quot;goodness&#039;s sake&quot; whatever that means) than to retain this belief.

Most of the feelings and morality that existed when you believe in Santa Claus are still there after you stop believing in him. (Some of the &quot;magical&quot; feelings are apparently gone and the influence of Santa&#039;s omniscient presence goes away, but love, fear, inspiration, guilt, wonder, mystery, etc. are all still there. Of course, ridding yourself of one irrationality does not get rid of all irrationality.)

The same can be said for gods and Jesus. Atheists or nontheists can retain the positive outlook and emotions they had as a theist, but they (usually, or in most cases I witness) become more reliant on their own rationality for making decisions and develop their personal philosophy and morality to a greater and more consistent level. Your purpose becomes whatever you deem it to be, and your choice can be as fulfilling as a god-loving evangelist&#039;s.

For those who continue to believe in Santa, gods, or Jesus into adulthood, I will mostly not bring up the topic. However, I deem it to be my responsibility to the rest of humanity to try to show people, when they are receptive, that there is no need for their faith and they will be better off without it. It is really a personal, emotional, and intellectual journey to come to that conclusion and I really can&#039;t initiate that process of my own volition, but I can add another straw to the camel&#039;s back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, this reminds me of the discussion group meetings of the old days, so I&#8217;ll pipe up and contribute too.</p>
<p>Sarah, I agree that humanity&#8217;s best guess (i.e., science) is not the whole story, at least as it stands right now. I also think some people get a little too cocky when talking about the state of science and the ability of humans to reach greater understanding and control their fate. Science and human reason have their limits. But I think humanity&#8217;s other guesses (religions and other attempts at gaining access to super- or extra-human knowledge and experience) are not very good. For example, too much credence is given to anecdotal evidence, logical fallacies proliferate, and unjustified interpretations are made of genuine emotional experiences and psychological states.</p>
<p>But, on to my analogy:</p>
<p>The belief in the Christian god and Jesus is like the belief in Santa Claus in many ways. Santa Claus can really inspire you when you are vulnerable to the myth. You can get very excited about his love and gifts and be frightened by the potential for withholding of gifts or bestowing of coal or orther more nasty fates. Santa Claus has the ability to change the behavior of little children for the better. And yet, it is better for children to grow up and realize the benefit of being good for their own sake (not just for &#8220;goodness&#8217;s sake&#8221; whatever that means) than to retain this belief.</p>
<p>Most of the feelings and morality that existed when you believe in Santa Claus are still there after you stop believing in him. (Some of the &#8220;magical&#8221; feelings are apparently gone and the influence of Santa&#8217;s omniscient presence goes away, but love, fear, inspiration, guilt, wonder, mystery, etc. are all still there. Of course, ridding yourself of one irrationality does not get rid of all irrationality.)</p>
<p>The same can be said for gods and Jesus. Atheists or nontheists can retain the positive outlook and emotions they had as a theist, but they (usually, or in most cases I witness) become more reliant on their own rationality for making decisions and develop their personal philosophy and morality to a greater and more consistent level. Your purpose becomes whatever you deem it to be, and your choice can be as fulfilling as a god-loving evangelist&#8217;s.</p>
<p>For those who continue to believe in Santa, gods, or Jesus into adulthood, I will mostly not bring up the topic. However, I deem it to be my responsibility to the rest of humanity to try to show people, when they are receptive, that there is no need for their faith and they will be better off without it. It is really a personal, emotional, and intellectual journey to come to that conclusion and I really can&#8217;t initiate that process of my own volition, but I can add another straw to the camel&#8217;s back.</p>
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		<title>By: erich</title>
		<link>http://www.cogitolingua.net/blog/2009/02/24/dan-barker-and-jesus/comment-page-1/#comment-2539</link>
		<dc:creator>erich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 04:22:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cogitolingua.net/blog/?p=157#comment-2539</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s true that any positive idea has the power to improve us. But some ideas are better at that than others. I personally hold to the ideals of the Enlightenment (but not to all of that era&#039;s conclusions). Free Speech, Free Thought, Free Inquiry, Skepticism, Equal Rights, Universal Ethics, etc... I think these principals are better than those espoused by any religion.

In particular, given a certain view, Christianity can be viewed as a death cult. It&#039;s focused on the human sacrifice of a single individual, the cross is a symbol of that sacrifice. It holds that all men are created as immoral sinners. There&#039;s also mindset, that you should do whatever God (or his spokesman) says without question, even if you otherwise think such actions are immoral. There&#039;s also Armageddon and the End Times, which encourages lack of long-term planning. I consider alot of this to be dangerous. There&#039;s more at http://www.cogitolingua.net/blog/index.php/2009/01/22/stump-the-professor/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s true that any positive idea has the power to improve us. But some ideas are better at that than others. I personally hold to the ideals of the Enlightenment (but not to all of that era&#8217;s conclusions). Free Speech, Free Thought, Free Inquiry, Skepticism, Equal Rights, Universal Ethics, etc&#8230; I think these principals are better than those espoused by any religion.</p>
<p>In particular, given a certain view, Christianity can be viewed as a death cult. It&#8217;s focused on the human sacrifice of a single individual, the cross is a symbol of that sacrifice. It holds that all men are created as immoral sinners. There&#8217;s also mindset, that you should do whatever God (or his spokesman) says without question, even if you otherwise think such actions are immoral. There&#8217;s also Armageddon and the End Times, which encourages lack of long-term planning. I consider alot of this to be dangerous. There&#8217;s more at <a href="http://www.cogitolingua.net/blog/index.php/2009/01/22/stump-the-professor/" rel="nofollow">http://www.cogitolingua.net/blog/index.php/2009/01/22/stump-the-professor/</a></p>
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		<title>By: erich</title>
		<link>http://www.cogitolingua.net/blog/2009/02/24/dan-barker-and-jesus/comment-page-1/#comment-2538</link>
		<dc:creator>erich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 04:13:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cogitolingua.net/blog/?p=157#comment-2538</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t really speak for Dan, so I&#039;ll have to answer everything from my perspective.

I am quite certain (it would take extraordinary evidence to convince me otherwise) that there is no &quot;grand master plan&quot; to the universe. As far as intelligent life goes, we are it so far. (I&#039;m sure there is other intelligent life out there, but space travel is difficult, so it&#039;s possible we might not ever see any of it before we die off) Because we are so alone in the universe, it is vitally important that we figure certain things out, lest we do ourselves in. Because each of us lives so short, it&#039;s imperative that we do as much good as we can while we are here. Morality doesn&#039;t require a Supreme Enforcer, we can, have, and (following enlightenment principles) will continue, to figure things out as we grow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t really speak for Dan, so I&#8217;ll have to answer everything from my perspective.</p>
<p>I am quite certain (it would take extraordinary evidence to convince me otherwise) that there is no &#8220;grand master plan&#8221; to the universe. As far as intelligent life goes, we are it so far. (I&#8217;m sure there is other intelligent life out there, but space travel is difficult, so it&#8217;s possible we might not ever see any of it before we die off) Because we are so alone in the universe, it is vitally important that we figure certain things out, lest we do ourselves in. Because each of us lives so short, it&#8217;s imperative that we do as much good as we can while we are here. Morality doesn&#8217;t require a Supreme Enforcer, we can, have, and (following enlightenment principles) will continue, to figure things out as we grow.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah Dunn</title>
		<link>http://www.cogitolingua.net/blog/2009/02/24/dan-barker-and-jesus/comment-page-1/#comment-2540</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah Dunn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 03:48:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cogitolingua.net/blog/?p=157#comment-2540</guid>
		<description>So, do you think there&#039;s anything out there bigger than us? You know, any sort of &quot;grand intelligence&quot; that started this whole universe thing? Or are we it.
If ANY positive idea can have the power to make us beautiful, why does Barker object so strongly to my choosing this positive idea (Christianity) and not his positive ideas? Does he? Or is he ok with whatever I choose as long as I&#039;ve thought critically for myself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, do you think there&#8217;s anything out there bigger than us? You know, any sort of &#8220;grand intelligence&#8221; that started this whole universe thing? Or are we it.<br />
If ANY positive idea can have the power to make us beautiful, why does Barker object so strongly to my choosing this positive idea (Christianity) and not his positive ideas? Does he? Or is he ok with whatever I choose as long as I&#8217;ve thought critically for myself.</p>
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		<title>By: erich</title>
		<link>http://www.cogitolingua.net/blog/2009/02/24/dan-barker-and-jesus/comment-page-1/#comment-2537</link>
		<dc:creator>erich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 09:00:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cogitolingua.net/blog/?p=157#comment-2537</guid>
		<description>I also talked a bit with a Lawyer, a week after the event. (She was giving her own talk about Newdow&#039;s &quot;under God&quot; Pledge of Allegiance case) As a member of the audience at Barker&#039;s event, she observed that he still had a touch of the black-and-white view of the world, she thought that it was a bit sad for him to be missing out on more nuanced patterns of thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also talked a bit with a Lawyer, a week after the event. (She was giving her own talk about Newdow&#8217;s &#8220;under God&#8221; Pledge of Allegiance case) As a member of the audience at Barker&#8217;s event, she observed that he still had a touch of the black-and-white view of the world, she thought that it was a bit sad for him to be missing out on more nuanced patterns of thought.</p>
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		<title>By: erich</title>
		<link>http://www.cogitolingua.net/blog/2009/02/24/dan-barker-and-jesus/comment-page-1/#comment-2536</link>
		<dc:creator>erich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 08:59:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cogitolingua.net/blog/?p=157#comment-2536</guid>
		<description>Oh, I don&#039;t mind the long comments at all. I actually thought that because Barker had lived for 19 years as an authentic Christian preacher, that his comments about the personal relationship with Jesus were insightful. The feelings just prove that humans have that kind of feeling, that is only feeling that something exists doesn&#039;t meet the scientific standard for proof. But, I do completely acknowledge that the feelings themselves are real.

As an agnostic atheist, I believe that God does not exist, but know that I can&#039;t prove it. But the &lt;em&gt;idea&lt;/em&gt; of God certainly has power. But any positive idea can have the power to &quot;change you into something beautiful beyond your imagination.&quot; So Barker only recommends reading and thinking critically for oneself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, I don&#8217;t mind the long comments at all. I actually thought that because Barker had lived for 19 years as an authentic Christian preacher, that his comments about the personal relationship with Jesus were insightful. The feelings just prove that humans have that kind of feeling, that is only feeling that something exists doesn&#8217;t meet the scientific standard for proof. But, I do completely acknowledge that the feelings themselves are real.</p>
<p>As an agnostic atheist, I believe that God does not exist, but know that I can&#8217;t prove it. But the <em>idea</em> of God certainly has power. But any positive idea can have the power to &#8220;change you into something beautiful beyond your imagination.&#8221; So Barker only recommends reading and thinking critically for oneself.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah Dunn</title>
		<link>http://www.cogitolingua.net/blog/2009/02/24/dan-barker-and-jesus/comment-page-1/#comment-2534</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah Dunn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 03:06:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cogitolingua.net/blog/?p=157#comment-2534</guid>
		<description>I hope its ok that I wrote so much. Sorry if I came on a little strong. I just couldn&#039;t read all this stuff he says about God and Jesus (two things that are important to me) without putting in my own two cents. Besides, it&#039;s good to hear different sides of an argument. That&#039;s what free thinking is all about, isn&#039;t it? Thanks for sharing your notes.
:)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope its ok that I wrote so much. Sorry if I came on a little strong. I just couldn&#8217;t read all this stuff he says about God and Jesus (two things that are important to me) without putting in my own two cents. Besides, it&#8217;s good to hear different sides of an argument. That&#8217;s what free thinking is all about, isn&#8217;t it? Thanks for sharing your notes.<br />
:)</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah Dunn</title>
		<link>http://www.cogitolingua.net/blog/2009/02/24/dan-barker-and-jesus/comment-page-1/#comment-2535</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah Dunn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 03:02:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cogitolingua.net/blog/?p=157#comment-2535</guid>
		<description>Wow. I can&#039;t speak to Mr. Barker&#039;s data about the historicity of Jesus. In any case, I&#039;m not going to give up my relationship with Jesus because there&#039;s no birth certificate. But just because science can explain how something works, or at least begin to uncover aspects of how it happens, that does not explain why it&#039;s there or what is happening spiritually (assuming there is a spiritual component, which I do). Just because we can understand it now doesn&#039;t mean God can&#039;t be working there anymore. The older I get, the more sure I become that humanity&#039;s best guess is not the whole story. As a Christian, I believe that the Bible is the written history of God trying to explain the incomprehensible immensity of who He is to humans who are both dust and eternity wrapped up in bodies that grow and learn and make choices. Jesus is both real and legendary, God and man together. And because of Jesus, God is changing me into something beautiful beyond my imagination. Can Barker do that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow. I can&#8217;t speak to Mr. Barker&#8217;s data about the historicity of Jesus. In any case, I&#8217;m not going to give up my relationship with Jesus because there&#8217;s no birth certificate. But just because science can explain how something works, or at least begin to uncover aspects of how it happens, that does not explain why it&#8217;s there or what is happening spiritually (assuming there is a spiritual component, which I do). Just because we can understand it now doesn&#8217;t mean God can&#8217;t be working there anymore. The older I get, the more sure I become that humanity&#8217;s best guess is not the whole story. As a Christian, I believe that the Bible is the written history of God trying to explain the incomprehensible immensity of who He is to humans who are both dust and eternity wrapped up in bodies that grow and learn and make choices. Jesus is both real and legendary, God and man together. And because of Jesus, God is changing me into something beautiful beyond my imagination. Can Barker do that?</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://www.cogitolingua.net/blog/2009/02/24/dan-barker-and-jesus/comment-page-1/#comment-1958</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Mar 2009 00:19:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cogitolingua.net/blog/?p=157#comment-1958</guid>
		<description>Christians are a minority? lol.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Christians are a minority? lol.</p>
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